Developer Guidance for Web Sites with Flash Content in Windows 8

Except that many flash movies are utterly broken now in RP IE-Desktop, that worked fine in CP IE-Desktop.  The sound plays, but the picture is blank/white.  And I don't see any way to uninstall the 'integrated' flash player in IE10-Desktop so I can put in the "real" Flash Player plugin that actually works.

I seriously hope this is a HIGH priority regression bug to be fixed before release.

"Metro style IE continues to provide no support for 3rd party ActiveX controls or plug-ins."

Huge mistake.  Without RoboForm, IE10 Metro is useless to me and millions of others.  And there is no logical reason for this.  Plugins like RoboForm have zero impact on battery life and have proven to be very stable.

"...only sites that are listed in the Flash section of the Compatibility View (CV) list can play Flash content within Metro style IE."

Let me guess: flash ad servers are probably on that list.

Two questions:

1) Will enterprises have the ability to add B2B or B2A sites (e.g. their own Intranet sites, sites of business partners, etc.) to the CV lists of their own managed PCs and tablets?

2) Can we expect a similar mechanism for Silverlight (even if not at launch)?

Thanks!

@pmbAustin, can you send me the bug report on Connect (which of course you must have posted), so I can vote?

@pmbAustin: Please use the "Email IEBlog editor" link in the upper right and email me the URL(s) of the pages on which you're seeing these problems. I'll pass them on to the appropriate team. Ensuring an excellent Flash experience in IE10 is a high priority.

i have issue like description by pmbAustin on Windows Server 2012, example www.jcrew.com, every flash ad displays blank, same as national geographic The Daily Dozen ngm.nationalgeographic.com/.../daily-dozen

Hi guys,

Thank for all these posts but what about UI for desktop, features...? I don't see any post related to features added to the desktop.

I'm enjoying the progress of you (I've been following since the IE9). But a question is bothering me. You will support Windows 7? I mean, you will make a version for Windows 7?

It is almost just copied and pasted from the long, long post 23 days ago...

In one word flash support in metro IE is a great move by MS.

Give us embedded Silverlight or die, cowards!!!

i cant use my bluetooth..

What about the full screen video multi-monitor bug? When you have a full screen video on one display, and you click something on the other display, the video exits full screen.

The annoying behavior happens for both Metro IE and Desktop IE, for both Flash videos and HTML 5 videos. The flash videos worked fine in Consumer Preview. The bug was introduced in the Release Preview.

It seems there is also a Connect bug for this issue: connect.microsoft.com/.../loosing-full-screen-when-focus-is-on-second-display

Due to this bug, I will have to use another browser today to watch Formula 1 today, since I like to use one display for the race video stream, and the other display for the live tracker video stream, and due to the bug I cannot use both of them full screen.

As soon as I click the full screen button for the second video stream, the first one exists full screen. Then if I click the full screen button on the first video, the second video exists full screen, and so on.

Even more annoyingly, when existing full screen mode, the browser automatically scrolls to the top of the page, instead of returning to the state it was before entering full screen. This bug was also introduced in Release Preview.

Can users completely uninstall Adobe Flash from Windows 8 systems, whether desktop or Metro?

And what about Silvelright?

Someone help me out here, but this just sounds absurd to me. Let me present a scenario:

The University of Denver is hosting the first US presidential debate in October. We serve video on the debate site through both RTMP/Flash and HLS/HTML. HLS only hits iPads... so we'll need Windows 8 tablet users to view the videos using Flash.

So... we email Microsoft requesting du.edu be placed upon the CV list and it gets on there. NOW - not only is that one video playback request passed through no problem - but everything on du.edu, including all subdomains are all on CV list as well? This could include all manner of "untested" content.

Secondarily, what about private network content? How can Microsoft test something which requires university credentials to access?

There are so many holes in how this is supposed to work! I cannot see it lasting in present form - since it is fairly useless to anyone on either side of the equation. I was really giving Microsoft the benefit of a doubt when this was all first announced. I try to be fair. In all fairness- this sounds like a huge mess.

Unless this is Microsoft's way of getting users to download Chrome?

Give up on the CV idea, Microsoft. You are doing more harm than good. Go for a "always on/click to play/always off" scenario like Android has.

Lastly - I want Windows 8 to be great. I applaud Microsoft's inclusion of Flash Player. Great move - but this CV bit is a MISTAKE!

It would be amazing if we have the Create Download button in Internet Explorer 10's download manager!

connect.microsoft.com/.../create-download-in-ie-download-manager

For the LOB content, I guess Microsoft will provide the system admins the ability to maintain their own CV for the machines under the domain. So that user on the domain (personnel or university student's) will be able to access the content which your organization think trustworthy. (Like they recently announce for Windows Phone 8 apps)

This is the only way to make the organization people happy AND keeping check on the rest of the "public" flash content on web (whether its a memory-hog, ill-performing, touch inputs ready, yada yada).

To your Chrome comment: I believe; if IE10Metro in your Win8RT tablet (as opposed to Win8 pro tablet) cannot render a certain flash content, other browsers won't be privileged by Microsoft and Adobe to render it as well. Especially the Chrome and Firefox future version of Windows 8 "Metro".. (for which they are showing concerns).

Dangling Pointer says: "It would be amazing if we have the Create Download button in Internet Explorer 10's download manager! connect.microsoft.com/.../create-download-in-ie-download-manager"

Did you mean an Add button in the View Downloads dialog? I have voted +1 on connect for it.

Thanks

So hold on... Now in order to serve up content on the web we now need to get Microsofts approval to publish it to windows tablets!?!?

Do you have any idea how absurd that sounds?

Why not let the user chose?!

If I want to watch a Zero Punctuation game review video on a windows tablet I have to ensure that the site owner is magically aware that microsoft has this archaic lock on content!

In terms of dispicable business practices this is the worst that Microsoft has done yet.

Absolutely appalled!!!

@Richard, the restricted content makes sense if your flash app is not complying with low energy tablets performance and efficiency requirements. Incidentally, the standard Web content is the one delivered in HTML, SVG, CSS, JavaScript, JSON, etc. On the contrary, Flash/Flex content is proprietary and not-standard. Most of the webmasters have moved to the "new age", the html5, CSS3 etc. for gaming and other RIAs. With the support of SVG, Canvas, Web Scokets, AppCache, Indexed Database and Web Cache in IE10 and other latest browsers, the development of Flash and Flex app has significantly dropped. Even Adobe has geared towards developing new HTML5/CSS3 tools (Adobe Edge)... Even Microsoft has released Expression web's SP1 for html5-centric (expression.microsoft.com/.../gg702907.aspx) also the VS2012 Express for Web (freeware).

If you are interested in developing a Rich Internet Application (RIA), here is a useful resource: msdn.microsoft.com/.../aa740473.aspx

Expression Web: expression.microsoft.com/.../gg702907.aspx

VS2012 Express for Web: www.microsoft.com/.../downloads

Why leaving Dreamviewer, Netbeans, and other HTML/CSS editors for VS2012? Watch this video channel9.msdn.com/.../Web-Developer-Efficiency-Tools-in-Visual-Studio-11

@keyframe rule of CSS: msdn.microsoft.com/.../hh772747(v=vs.85).aspx

After spending time on learning the HTML5 support status in the latest browsers, as of today, can we transform the Flash animation/movie or game to HTML5 to run in plugin-free browser? The answer is YES, HTML5/CSS3/JS5 will suffice!

@DanglingPointer - Chrome for Metro was announced recently, and will be coming with bundled Flash support as per usual.

I'm not sure I can call this the new age. It's really more like the old age. As in 1999 all over again with a different set of (worse) problems substituted for another.

Now we have much better standards and more momentum, yes. But we also have 20+ different browser/version/OS combo's to support, that testing costs are skyrocketing. At least in the old age, you could reasonably test most of your targets on one or two machines. Now the compatibility matrix for HTML is a complete mess, with many many API's that break under the slightest pressure, and many that are missing outright.

The performance argument is nonsensical. With the new Canvas and WebGL API's, Javascript is just as capable of melting your CPU/GPU as Flash ever was. Is a "for loop" in AS3 somehow more dangerous than one in Javascript? It's rubbish.

I really don't think the future of real "web applications" is in a technology where the display layer is completely unreliable. Flash is actually much MORE useful now than it's ever been, solving display inconsistencies and reducing testing time 10 fold. It's really just Apple that has, for some reason, put a stake so firmly in the ground.

I really think that if web based applications are to stand any chance against native AppStore apps, we all need Flash to see a resurgence. It's a matter of staying cost competitive. Otherwise it's doomed to failure, massively increased costs for a much poorer end result, how does that add up? Better to just build native applications...

Also, regarding developers for games moving to HTML5, that's just patently false. If you look at Facebook, the top 99% of game are still Flash. So to say that most game developers have moved is just wildly off the mark.

Also, worth discussing how the headlines are daily, being filled with reports of companies who went HTML and are now calling it a bust, for them. Facebook is a great notable example, EA said this a while back, and just recently Wooga, the #4 game publisher on Facebook, called it quits.

The trend is the same. The ones investing the money getting serious with HTML5, are losing their shirts, and having to turn back.

So,  no XXX movies on Metro then...  Because if you allow them,  the list will grow so big that IE will need hours to launch.  But,  ok, the desktop will do.

By the way,  there are so many reasons to use the desktop in Windows 8,  that I am more and more asking myself who will ever user Metro...  I fear too many restrictions will kill Metro,  which would be really disappointing.  Lets hope all this restrictions will be lifted in the future.

hey, when are you planning to put user's favoriate links into cloud? and a convenient way of viewing the link bar with link displayed as an icon?

Aren't you going to at least say something about Silverlight?  To all those to listened to your SL talks, the hype, and then worked hard to develop using it, can't you at least say something??  Supporting Flash is great, but to do that and not support SL is simply a slap in the face of those who followed the SL path with you.

@Jenny T. re: "@Richard, the restricted content makes sense if your flash app is not complying with low energy tablets performance and efficiency requirements."

That's all very good but there are billions of pages on the Internet!!! and they change monthly, weekly, daily, even hourly!!!!

Requiring developers to PRE-REQUEST that their content be added to the MICROSOFT-APPROVED list is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

What Microsoft should do is when loading the content... (which it should do, BY DEFAULT!)... check if the content has signs of bad performance and provide a message to the user that:

"The multimedia content on this page is not optimized for tablet viewing - this may cause poor battery performance"

This kind of message is ACTUALLY HELPFUL!.... the developer will see it, and KNOW there is an issue that they can Google for and solve.  The end user can also decide that it might be worth informing the developer... but if not, the user HAS THE OPTION to see the content THEY REQUESTED TO LOAD!!!! or they can cancel viewing it to save their battery.

THE USER SHOULD ALWAYS BE IN CONTROL!

THE USER SHOULD ALWAYS BE IN CONTROL!

THE USER SHOULD ALWAYS BE IN CONTROL!

THE USER SHOULD ALWAYS BE IN CONTROL!

@John Obeto: Disabling Flash is possible using Group Policy. An end-user can turn off Flash on his or her machine by using the Local Group Policy Editor. On the Windows 8 Start screen, search for “gpedit.msc”. The search results under “Apps” will list gpedit.msc. Click to launch the Local Group Policy Editor. In the tree view in the left panel, navigate to Computer Configuration > Administrative Templates > Windows Components > Internet Explorer > Security Features > Add-on Management. In the right panel, a setting named “Turn off Adobe Flash in Internet Explorer and…”will be listed. Double-click the setting and change its state to “Disabled.” This will completely disable Flash in IE10 (desktop and Metro style) and all other applications that instantiate Flash.

@ieblog: Are you serious?  So, if I want to turn off Flash, I can simply go into a simple Ie preferences screen to do it?  I have to meander through adn impossibly difficult maze to do so?  Its no wonder why IE has such a bad reputation.  While I have been eagerly awaiting Windows 8 and getting a slate, I am very concerned on what I'm reading hear.  I think Glen said it best, "The user should always be in control".  I like the idea of being notified that content may affect me adversely and give me the option to not play it, but I should always have that ability.  Telling me what I can and cant do is the same thing China does with its Internet.  Is that what we really want?  Not me.  Give me the option to configure how IE handles flash; Blocked, Enabled or Notify.  Make it simple and give the user the choice.

@James, IE didn't had bad reputation because disabling the Flash is under policy setting, it was due to the web-developers and designers facing issues to use number of hacks to give the same look and feel of their websites in IE as in other browsers. IE10 has solved tons of issues compared to IE7. When I run a standard but complex HTML code on IE10, it shows me a difference. Speaking of China, Internet Explorer 10 desktop let you view all kinds of flash videos but IE10 for Metro will restrict number of untrusted flash sites because it will run on low power devices, which is a witty move to make. Some lazy webmasters don't even bother to correct some obvious design flaws for years, you think they will invest their time and money to modify the resource hungry flash projects unless they are forced to do so?

This is the betterment for the entire ecosystem.

THE USER SHOULD BE IN CONTROL but thing BIGGER about our entire Windows ECOSYSTEM!

I agree that IE10 is worlds better than what IE7 is.  Applause to MS for following standard and giving developers and users a solid browser.  But to tell users what they can and cant do is just terrible.  Apple set a aweful precedence and its sad to here MS is going to partially follow it.  Its like an auto-maker telling you that you can only drive their cars on roads they approve of.  The choice belongs in the hands of the user.  If I want to burn up my slate watching performance hogging flash content, that should be my choice.  If companies don't want to update their slow and flawed flash, so be it.  Thats their decision.  Not everyone has the time or resources to update old flash content, nor should they be forced to.  If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.  Its their loss.  But to tell me I don't even have the option unless I contact some totalitarian authority is just bad karma.  I'm all for betterment of the ecosystem, but this is not betterment.  This is control.  Its a step backwards.

@ieblog - this wreaks of a disgusting behavior that I want no part of whatsoever.

There is no reason whatsoever that Microsoft should be filtering out what content I should an should not be able to view on the Internet.

In case you missed the memo - the Internet is free, and open, unrestricted access ton information.  You've just officially put your foot down on censorship - Totally, completely, and absolutely unacceptable!

This is 100% censorship! If google decides to post a video on a blog somewhere that shows off a cool technology that far surpasses what Microsoft can do are you telling is that you'll be 100% unbiased and not block the video?! What if it were Apple? Adobe? RIM? The Chinese government? PETA?!

You can not be in charge of a censorship list - not only is it extremely unethical but also a massive conflict of interest!

What if I'm the owner of a site serving up the nastiest porn you can imagine?! Are you telling me that Microsoft is going to have paid employees scanning our flash content every hour to ensure that it doesn't use up excessive battery power?!?!

This is utterly rediculous!... If you truly care about power consumption then write a blog post on how to write better flash content or give USERS CONTROL over what flash content they want to load.

Are you going to block flash ads?!

Are you going to block flash based font substitution?!

What about sites that are entirely flash based (sound cloud etc) where the site is useless without flash - what will the user experience be when a user visits?!

Microsoft (and specifically IE) you've done a lot of shady things in your time on the Web, I think this might be the worst.

Currently DISGUSTED with Microsoft for even suggesting this unethical censorship.

@David G: Nothing in this post is about censorship; it’s about ensuring the best possible experience in Metro style IE10 on Windows 8 PCs. The decision to add a site to the Flash section of the CV list is made strictly on technical criteria, not the content of the site.

Remember, any site can play Flash content in Internet Explorer 10 for the desktop. All add-ons, including Flash and Silverlight, are available in desktop IE10 in order to deliver the most compatible Web experience.

Let me guess, the first thing they must have put in CV is that flash based ad running at right side on Hotmail... Get rid of that ad please.. how much money Microsoft make from that ad? come on please!

@ieblog - please explain how you think **anyone** will be accepting of this?!

Where is the page that every single developer that has a site or web application that uses flash supposed to go to get stupid **approval** from Microsoft in order to have their content shown?

For all the video content etc. that I host in my secure web applications that **MICROSOFT CAN NOT LOG INTO** how is microsoft going to pre-approve this content???

Does this CV list update every 30 seconds?  How fast can I get a site/app approved?  More than 3 seconds is **unacceptable**

Wait a second... you're going to add a full site/domain to the CV list?  are you suggesting for a second that 1 piece of flash content on an entire domain either makes or breaks IE tablets from running the content? Are you nuts!?

Did you not learn during IE8/IE9 development that having a huge list of domains to check against (SpyBot) caused massive IE performance issues? If you whitelist 90% of the web's domains is your CV list of sites not going to cause IE to crawl?

How much space is this list of 1,000's and 1,000's of domains on a tablet going to consume?

You've completely screwed up this concept... let the user decide which sites **they** want to Blacklist (not whitelist) that indicate poor performance.

Oh, and when I'm plugged in on my Windows Desktop or Laptop running Metro... are you going to CENSOR my INTERNET too?  This is unbelievable I can't believe you guys are so blind to the dozens of issues with this idea.

You are totally ruining the Internet for a 5% corner case.  Please hire back Chris Wilson - whomever is in charge right now is steering towards the iceberg not away from it.

@Rob Mauceri - set up a meeting with Dean Hachamovitch A.S.A.P! you seriously need to revoke this design now and either stop wasting time on it completely and ditch the idea or reverse the design entirely and let the **user** decide which sites/pages they want to **blacklist**

Side note 1: If this does not get fixed/resolved I will not be renewing my MSDN subscription.

Side note 2: This comment form is badly broken - please hurry up and fix it - its embarrassing now

From the Microsoft Site that describes the censorship:

[quote]

Submitting your site for consideration

Developers can submit their sites that they want to be included on the CV list to Microsoft via email.

To submit your site for consideration to the CV list, email iepo@microsoft.com and include the following details:

   Your name, company, title, and contact information

   The domain you want considered (http://contoso.com/) and the specific pages containing Flash content ( http://contoso.com/video, http://contoso.com/media)

   The approximate unique users per month that visit the domain

   The capabilities your Flash content requires - see Guidelines for Flash Content in Internet Explorer 10

   The name and version of the SWF your site is using, including version number for third party .SWF files if appropriate (for example, videoplayer.swf v1.2 from Contoso)

   A list of any other plugs-ins (not Flash) your domain depends on and the specific pages containing those controls. Be aware that if your site depends on other plug-ins, users will be directed to open your site in Internet Explorer 10 for the desktop.

   The results of your testing of the pages listed in step two (2) of these steps — see Test Guidance and Test Cases.

[/quote]

That's right folks! In order for your sites... that you've been running for years without any issues... you need to make a formal filing to Microsoft to ensure that they are playable in Windows 8 in Metro mode (you know, the mode the keep showing us in every single piece of PR they've done... the supposed future of Windows... in that mode, if you want your content to **continue** to show you need to take specific actions as listed above.

You need to tell Microsoft how many hits your site gets! (uhm that's private thanks very much!)

You need to run a bunch of tests on every single page of your content (not sure how you are going to test your content before you upload it)

You need to tell Microsoft this info for **every** domain you own!!!

You need to tell Microsoft which flash components you use, etc.

**Total Internet Censorship!** - brought to you by Microsoft!

Can't wait till 9am Pacific Time - my Rep at Microsoft is going to get an earful.

@Harold,

Traversing a huge XML file (CV) is a matter of milliseconds for a high-speed rendering engine like Trident.

Comment system timeout is 15 minutes, if you are not signed with your LiveID. With LiveID, there is no timeout.

I agree with your argument, under an approved domain in CV, what is the guarantee if all the flash content is complying with the "technical" criteria. Will MSFT check every flash movie on a domain? What about dynamic websites like deviantart.com and other CGI sites where flash content is uploaded every few minutes?

This whole model is full of flaws. Get rid of it IE Team! Either BAN flash on IE10 Metro or ALLOW fully functional flash with a performance observer which should warn the end-user like Glen suggested:

"The multimedia content on this page is not optimized for tablet viewing - this may cause poor battery performance"

This transvestite behaviour is unacceptable. If it breaks your marketplace/application-store model then disallow Flash in metro like you did in Windows Phone..... Also, if Silverlight for web is restricted in metro then why not Flash?

Get creative guys!

PS Harold, would you open a bug report on connect.microsoft.com, documenting these concerns and send us the link? Being a community member, this is the best we can do..

The 15 minute timeout is only part of the problem... even in 60 seconds you can fail to post.  The issue is a well documented bug with Community Server and ASP PostBacks... the solution has been posted a zillion times:

<input type="submit" value="Post"/>

That's right! you can solve the 7 year IE blog comment bug with 35 characters!  The problem is that no one at Microsoft is listening (and judging by the Epic Fail that the CV list for Flash content in IE10 on Metro is... they are turning a deaf ear - once again)

I can't wait till I tell my boss that we have to submit our private web app site stats to Microsoft in order to get approval to get our content to render in Windows 8! (content that has run in IE for over 13 years)

I don't even know what words to use to describe this fiasco.

EPIC FAIL isn't a strong enough statement!

"Remember, any site can play Flash content in Internet Explorer 10 for the desktop. All add-ons, including Flash and Silverlight, are available in desktop IE10 in order to deliver the most compatible Web experience."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the first version of Surface Windows RT? Meaning it will have no support whatsover for Desktop mode?? The real Windows Pro tablet won't come for another 3mths or so, and it weights like 2lbs (it's not really a tablet any more).

Is Desktop IE mode at least enabled in Windows RT? If not, please stop telling people they have a choice... until you can get the weight and size of Windows Pro tablets down @ < 1.5lbs, no one will be buying them, we'll be buying the cheaper, lighter Windows RT tablets.

The entire reasoning is based on this false pretense that Flash is more resource hungry than Canvas.

Which is actually the opposite case. Stage3D is more performant than Canvas2D.

So why are you not whitelisting Canvas applications to "Ensure the best experience" of your user's?

@Steve - You don't have to do. Just detect Windows 8 + IE10, and slap a big fast message on your page:

"Please go to Windows App Store and download Chrome for Metro, it has full Flash Support!"

@Shawn, WinRT devices do have a desktop mode... it's just hobbled dramatically.  There's no "Windows Media Player" and no way to install any new Desktop Applications.  But it does have Windows Explorer, desktop versions of Office Home & Student, the control panel, etc, etc.  And that also includes IE10-Desktop.

@ieblog wrote: "Remember, any site can play Flash content in Internet Explorer 10 for the desktop. All add-ons, including Flash and Silverlight, are available in desktop IE10 in order to deliver the most compatible Web experience."

If only that were true.  At least in the Release Preview, Flash movies are broken in a majority of sites, and even on Desktop (where they used to work in the CP) there's nothing you can do to "fix" the problem... because the new integrated Flash cannot be uninstalled, and you can't install the version that actually works.

The link to the signup page for un-censoring our Flash content in Windows 8 is down.

msdn.microsoft.com/.../jj193557%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

"The specified CGI application encountered an error and the server terminated the process."

Not that I had any intention of signing up.  I FULLY expect Microsoft to reverse this insanity before Windows8 sees the light of day.

There is no way I am sharing my unique visitor info - nor will any of it matter because all of our flash content is behind a pay-wall that is private so that only our paying customers can view it.

This content works in any browser that supports flash - IE10 for Metro currently DOES NOT support flash by definition because of this censorship farce.

<egg_on_face>Microsoft</egg_on_face>

I suggest you hurry up and revise your decision before this gets out beyond the IE Tech community.

You have got to be joking!

"Microsoft will provide prompt notice to the developer acknowledging receipt of request and an estimated time for resolution. Microsoft will process the developer's request in approximately six (6) weeks depending on the volume of sites submitted. "

Yeah, that works perfect in the modern real-time Internet.  Six weeks to get approval to show the content we already show today without issue?!

Would you like us to send the request on carbon paper, in triplicate, in a SASE envelope with full postage paid too?

It gets even better!

"Sites accepted onto the CV list will be included in the next regular update of the CV list, which Microsoft updates to end users of Windows 8, typically one time per month."

That's right... after your 6 week approval process to get signoff on the critical time sensitive content you posted to your site today... you'll get approval... but being added to the main list only... you may have to wait an additional 4 weeks to get rolled out to the CV update list.

***********************************************

That's right... in 2012/2013 in order to get your flash content to display on a Windows 8 machine in IE10 Metro mode you may have to wait up to 10 weeks!!!!! (2-1/2 MONTHS!!!) to get approval.

Just keep your head in the sand there Microsoft... yeah there's not 100 different issues with this completely messed up concept.

Whitelists DO NOT WORK when you are talking about BILLIONS of web pages!

only USER-DEFINED Blacklists will be of any use to users.

Since this metro mode is tuning into a compatibility nightmare - where's the option in windows 8 to switch it off completely?

Based on everything I've seen and read so far I certainly don't want metro on my laptop PC - I want to go straight into my desktop where I can actually get some work accomplished.

Neil

Unusable flash issue in Metro IE10 needs to be resolved.

There are several issues with the proposed implementation which cause great concern for both developers and users.

01.) Developers should be able to continue publishing their content as normal - an approval process for something that has worked for ~15 years is NOT acceptable

02.) If there actually were to be an authority that determined the quality of flash content - it must be a 3rd party - NOT Microsoft

03.) Submitting private details about our sites to Microsoft in order to obtain approval is NOT acceptable

04.) Private sites / apps that host flash content can not submit their URLs for approval - thus this idea is BROKEN BY DESIGN

05.) A 6 week turnaround for approval of a site is NOT acceptable

06.) A 4 week delay for updates to the CV list is not acceptable

07.) A 10 week (combining the two) delay to get approval for content published every single day is NOT acceptable

08.) Desktop/Laptop users with power/plugged in do NOT care about excessive power consumption, they just want the content they requested - do NOT block user content

09.) WebApp developers often have charts built using flash that will perform according to the ammount of data displayed - do NOT block content that is REQUIRED for the app to work

10.) Metro IE should detect when performance is poor and notify the user in a non-interfering way so that the USER can decide if THEY want to block the content

11.) Whitelisting doesn't work for the Internet - Blacklisting makes much more sense and can be tailored to the USER vs. the MASSES

12.) Microsoft has been touting Metro as the new interface for Windows 8 - if flash isn't going to be supported properly in Metro IE you'd be better off to drop it completely - do NOT ruin our desktop experience because your tablets have battery issues

I suggest reversing everything and using a USER defined BLACKLIST - or ditch your efforts in this pointless endevour completely.

Developers and Users will not like Microsoft telling them which content they can or can't see... when it works perfectly fine on all other devices/platforms that support flash.

CENSORSHIP does not belong on the World Wide Web - if we want to block content we will use #NetNanny or #OpenDNS - Microsoft does not own the Internet - nor should it ever be responsible for controlling any aspect of it!  We suffered 10 years of technology stagnation due to Internet Explorer - please DO NOT ruin the Web any further.

Please a flash block list in the next IE with a control right click -> block this flash content button....

Web statistics for sites using flash went from ~26% in June 2011 to ~22% in June 2012.  

Flash usage would be under 10% of the web sites in about 3 years if the trend continues.  

I'm building a new website today that uses HTML5 audio and video.

For browsers that don't support it (or the open audio/video codecs I'm using) I am falling back to a flash player and there will also be some flash charts on a dashboard.

I hope to have the site/app ready for launch by October.

Until the day I launch there will be no public content for Microsoft or any 3rd party to view/test.

Since the approval period to get content review and added to the CV list is 10 weeks (with no guarentee of acceptance) what are startups supposed to do to handle this new Windows8 censorship?!

Are you telling me that windows8 users have to wait till mid-Novermber to view my startup app? If Microsoft can somehow test my content without having an account??

What about the user generated content where they can embed YouTube and Vimeo content on the fly?... Will Microsoft revoke my approval if the content changes over time? Will Microsoft give developers a 12 week warning that their site will be pulled from the list of they don't fix the offending content?! (eg enough time for us to fix it and re-submit it)

Currently based on the rediculous terms of this censorship agreement that I have no way of qualifying for (technically, logistically, & realistically impossible) I'm going to have to pull all Windows8/IE10 support for my app.

Since I will be losing customers and business because of this Microsoft blunder I will have to take drastic action in hopes of compensation and customer retention.  I will therefore sniff for IE10... And if found deliver a huge alert message on screen that Internet Explorer is not compatible with links included for each of the other browsers that do properly, fully, completely support flash (Chrome, Firefox, Safari, & Opera, etc.)

I'm not sure what else I can say.  This is the single most abusive use of power I have seen from Microsoft since they killed Netscape with shady monopolistic tactics.

I certainly hope and expect that there will be a full retraction of this catastrophe followed by an apology and a new statement about how the whole thing is going to be dropped or replaced with a user defined blacklist.

@Mikka: My recommendation is simple: Build your new site using all HTML5 technologies and serve the format(s) required to cover all the browsers on all the platforms where you expect your customers to be. Flash fallback is only needed to support users of IE8.

@Ted Johnson [MSFT] I am using HTML5 technologies! And of course I'm using open standard formats.

The bigger problem is that I still need flash support (even in IE10).

The issue is that Microsoft has decided to take a CENSORSHIP position over content on the Internet regardless whether it is served up to a tablet or a PC!

There have been dozens of issues brought up with why this CV list and all the associated mess of this failed design won't work - yet no one from Microsoft has commented on this blog yet indicating how they intend to fix it!

- how are disputes going to be handled?

- what are the exact thresholds we have to meet?

- how are private sites going to be certified?

- how are large domains going to work? Eg Wordpress where there are tons of sites that use flash but god only knows how many are good vs bad

- for shared domains do all sub domains have to submit approval requests?

- how is the 10 week approval process going to work with sites that are brand new?

- how is the 10 week approval process going to work with sites that have content changing daily, hourly, or every minute (eg Digg.com) (break.com) (CNN.com)?

- how often is Microsoft going to re- check sites? (we take it you are not relying on a 1 time scan for eternal approval)

- as many have noted a whitelist is the wrong approach, please explain why Microsoft is not listening to its IE users and providing the more sensible user defined blacklist option?

- why does Microsoft need our hit counts to add our site to a list?

- when is Microsoft going to announce this plan to the rest of the developer world so that site owners are not caught of guard that there content suddenly stops working and they won't be able to fix it for 10 weeks!

- has Microsoft directly approached the flash developer community to indicate their intentions of over complicating an already working Internet

- can IE10 users turn off this "feature" and allow any site to run... Just like it does in IE now... And as it will continue to do so in chrome Firefox safari and on android tablets playbook tablets etc.?

- can IT administrators turn this off with group policies since interfering with blocking enterprise LOB apps is basically a NO-GO if you want businesses to adopt windows8 (desktops, laptops, & tablets)

- actually can anyone from Microsoft find any saving grace aspect of this entire fiasco that is actually a good thing?

I see nothing in this plan that is anything other than a serious Fluster-Cluck if I was working on any part of this project at Microsoft I would have raised serious objections and only continue work on it under registered protest.

Please respond to all of our concerns (or outright shut down this disaster before it becomes a PR nightmare)

The CV list seems aimed at public web sites that require Flash, but what about private web applications that might run inside a company, but which also deliver information to that company's employees using Flash. There is no public URL that can be submitted to Microsoft, as it will be different for every customer and every server on which it is deployed.

Is there any way to use Flash inside IE 10 Metro for such a private web application? e.g can a company modify it's own copy of a CV list via Group Policy or programatically?

@AndrewS - Bingo! exactly the problem with attempting to control the consumer user experience for a tablet with configurations that actually control the enterprise desktop experience! - FAIL.

Plus what about plugins that are nothing to do with a website or a web application, for example content filters, or plugins that extend the UI? Is Microsoft saying IE Metro will not be flexible enough to support those perfectly valid use cases?

Why is Microsoft punishing end users by making content in-accessible in Metro IE?!

Let the users decide what they want to see/use!

If I want to play Unreal Tournament on my laptop I just play it... I could care less if the engine is pushing pixels and chewing up my CPU - I just want to play!

I browse the web the same way... Everything I link to just loads... Without issues.

If you've used a PlayBook or android tablet you know that the browsing is great because the web just works... The full web with flash audio video games movies interactive content etc just all work.

Don't make the same mistake iOS made denying users flash content and ruining the user experience for them.

I get majorly annoyed on my iPad when I get an email, chat message, Facebook post etc that links to a funny video etc on college humor or wherever and I click the link only to find that the content won't load.

Microsoft has tried very hard to hide the un-sexyness of the windows desktop with Metro and yet you have full power to run flash in metro yet you are going to block content by default unless developers magically discover they need to first publish their content to the web and then run a matrix of tests, gather results compile the info and formally request permission to have the content displayed!?!?! Wait 10 whole weeks for the content to be approved and visible to the end user?!

This plan is a complete disaster I can't imagine how much more retarded you could make this I'm speechless!

Microsoft - Please get a reality check!

In order for developers to get their existing (and future) flash content to work they need to run some tests.

Required tests:

1.) on a local machine, not a VM

2.) with software rendering both OFF and ON

3.) on a windows 7 touch capable device with a minimum resolution of 1366x768

There are 13 test cases, with items 1-10 tested in 3 view modes

So, (10) tests, (x3) view modes, (x2) rendering modes = (60 tests)

plus! (4) tests (x2) rendering modes = (8) tests

So we have to run 68 separate tests on brand new hardware that we don't own yet (win 7/8 touch capable device) and submit the results along with our private site stats to Microsoft for consideration... for content that runs fine today in **ANY** browser that runs flash!

Also include links to the SWF content we use so that Microsoft can run the same tests - Note that this will of course fail for **ANY** content that is not entirely 100% publicly accessible. (So all business apps, pay sites, enterprise B2B, LOB, etc. sites are not even testable!)

If we manage to run all the tests above - we can submit all this data to Microsoft (for **Every** site we develop/work on) then Microsoft will get back to us promptly within the next **6 Weeks**.

If we pass the tests our domain will be added to the list and we can then wait an additional **4 Weeks** to get the list published to all Windows PCs/Tablets to have our content whitelisted for approval.

There's no part of this entire process that makes any sense whatsoever! Its a total mess!

Better yet - what happens with native apps built for windows 8 that include a WebView container that flash is loaded into?!?!  Will these apps be subject to the same issues?  What if the flash content loaded is local - not remote - how will a CV domain list help here?

Or is this yet another loophole in this disaster? native apps can use as much CPU as they want... it is only the web content that is restricted by useless beuroratic censorship?

If we add a new flash control to our site... do we have to re-submit our permission request? or does the domain in the CV list actually whitelist the entire domain (concept fail)

If we update a flash control and the update performs badly... do we have to re-qualify for display permission?

I can't count the number of problems with this whole system... its like reading an entry over on the daily wtf - so many issues you don't even know where to start logging how wrong the whole design is.

@Microsoft - please reply to the comments here! Are you actively working on an alternative solution? Are you blindly thinking these issues will go away?

The longer this information is posted on this blog and the related KB article the longer this issue will frustrate developers and cause tons of confusion - please do yourself a favor and at least post an update to this main blog post that you have heard all of our concerns and are working on alternative solutions that better suit the needs of users, businesses, and developers.

Is anyone from Microsoft going to step forward and address all the issues that have been presented here?!

It seems pointless in even discussing the CV list and the whole inplimentation of this Flash thing until Microsoft comes forward with a statement about how this plan will actually not work, is a conflict of interest and actually fails to address the original problem - (ensuring business based flash applications working in metro IE)

You don't need to phrase it as an Epic Failure but you do need to come straight out and declare you are taking this one back to the drawing board as this plan wasn't  even 1/4 baked yet.

I feel sorry for Microsoft going to the press with this before really thinking it over or asking ANY of their developer partners for input/feedback... But we all know this is what happens when you don't maintain open communications with the developer community.

Ok enough of the finger poking... Just hurry up and make an announcement already! :-)

I tend to agree with many of the comments here.  I also think it comes down to user choice.  The user should have an easy way to decide to have Flash enabled on all sites, Flash enabled only on "device-friendly sites" (or whatever you want to call the CV list), or no Flash at all.  A similar mechanism should be in place for Silverlight.  And, those managing devices (e.g. as part of a domain, etc.) should be able to easily augment the CV list for internal LOB apps or B2B sites partners may have.

That said, I think that this point none of us should expect significant changes to IE 10 this late in the game.  Hopefully this can be addressed as part of an "IE 10.1" or something sooner than the next major release.  I guess it comes down to this: developers should have the ability to select the best technology for the type of web app they're building (be it HTML, Flash, or Silverlight), and users should have easy control over how much non-HTML content they want to consume.

Bottom line: have sensible, standards-based defaults but allow configuration to suit user and developer needs.

@James I agree that the user (and or IT Admin) should be in control of what content should be viewed on a device/PC.

If Microsoft is really too far along in IE10 development that they can't rip this out then they seriously need to fix there development process.

1.) learn agile development - you would avoid embarrassing moments like this if you had an iterative process and got feedback along the way

2.) Microsoft is going to face harsh criticism if they release IE10 with the censorship list in place

3.) Users and developers alike have unanimously indicated that this plan is an absolute waste of time and resources, fails completeltly at its intended purpose, and developers do not want to be part of it (even if they actually could submit a request)

4.) The next time Microsoft plans to drop a bombshell on us like this they need to do it extremely early in the dev process so that there's time available to fix or drop the feature.

Seriously disappointed in the complete lack of responses from Microsoft - you dropped this major change on us and then completely ignored all of our well pointed out issues with this scheme.  If you're going to drop it completely then tell us so we can stop worrying about it, if you actually still plan to implement any part of this still then let us know what parts you plan to change because the current scheme is completely un-workable.

Zzxzz zzzzz zzzz

We're still waiting for a response from Microsoft regarding this flash blocking feature in windows 8!

@Ted Johnson [MSFT]

"Flash fallback is only needed to support users of IE8."

How about you guys backport ie 10 to win xp and get rid of ie 6, 7, and 8, 9 once and for all with a forced update.  Then we wont need flash and censorship.    Amazing how google etc can make there browsers work on all your os's but you guys cant with all those billions in the bank.

@Ted Johnson [MSFT] Flash Fallback is still required for IE10!!! (we told you about this several times over the past year!)

Since IE/MSFT does not support open formats for audio/video (OGG Theora/Vorbis) we need to use a flash container for audio/video in IE so that IE users can continue to have a decent user experience.

Thus proper(read full) Flash support for IE10 Metro is actually a major issue - hence the tension as we wait for Microsoft to explain whether you plan to kill the CV censorship list or redesign it to be a user defined blacklist, or just give up and drop Flash support because Metro isn't capable of handling it.

I would say :

Bravo Microsoft !

Choosing to integrate Flash inside the browser, and Metro is another way to show all the users that you do CARE ABOUT USERS !

Peoples will again be able to experiance the full web content in this abundant and still growing fast Flash content on Internet.

This is why Our organisation greatly expecting the upcoming version of Windows, and upcoming Microsoft devices - because they are made for the users, and their very needs, not just some kind of company strategy, not some sort of company which wana tell the users what they do wana see or not, not some cheap excuses about hardware issues related to the content itself.

Windows = Multimedia = User experiance = Fun.

cut one of theese 4 important components and this would not be anymore Windows.

Once again - Great step Microsoft ! Continue the greath job in this direction :)

@MSFT - Any update?  Inquiring minds want to know.

@MSFT, @James

Re: "Any update?  Inquiring minds want to know."

Indeed - there's dozens of unanswered questions here regarding this whole plan (mostly major functional, logistic & ethical  holes in the whole concept)

When will we get info on which parts are being dropped or removed completely?  Have you already committed to full Flash support in Metro IE (and have just failed to inform us yet!)

We're not looking for a compromise... full support, or no support at all please.